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Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby Miso Vegan » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:05 pm

Ohhhh, GF and GLF are the same!

I've gotten together with like-minded vegan activists in the area to come up with a basic response to welfare-leaning vegans, a website and/or flyer to say "this is why I'm not supporting it." We decided we will not actively campaign against the initiative, though.

If I don't know how to build a website, how can I put up a website easily, with a specific name int he URL (as opposed to, say, creating a blog that has http://www.blogname.com/myclevergroupname)? I've been tasked with finding this out, which should indicate how tech-unsavvy this new group is!
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby vegankitty » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:38 pm

Panthera, what is prop 2? I essentially agree with every you said. I used to really admire GLF until some unpleasantness I which he came across as elitist and rude to a friend of mine. And on another forum where when women spoke up about how their opinions were ignored were told that in a discussion of feminism their experience didn't provide adequate background to opinions because they hadn't studied women's studies in school. And thanks also didn't like it when people told him that the term moral schizophrenia upset some people with mental illness and his response was dismissive. He said his intention wasn't the offend people but he would continue to use the phrase anyway. IMO the response to people telling you a term is offensive to them is to apologize, explain you didn't intend offense and then to stop using it.

I'll find the link to the thing about moral schizophrenia later. The other thing with feminism was on a closed forum.

I read some of his adherehents blogs and some I agree with, some I don't.

One thing GLF said that has stuck with me was that vegans shouldn't work on reform campaigns because there were nonvegans who worked on those campaigns and since there are so few of us we should be working on vegan education. It was the first time I had heard about abolitionism and that made total sense to me.
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby bluedawg » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:34 pm

i consider myself an abolitionist, yes. but not a gary francione disciple, necessarily. his work is what got me started down that road of thinking, but i probably don't agree with 100% of what he says. i feel like i'm on the same page with most of what several of you have said in this thread, so i don't want to just repeat the same ideas over and over, but some of it boils down to the fact that i'm not comfortable telling anyone that using animals is okay, so i i'm not comfortable supporting campaigns or products that convey that message. if asked, i always advocate the vegan option (not the cage-free option, not the bigger cages option, not the grass-fed option).

and i agree that single-issue campaigns are not necessarily a bad thing. if they focus on abolishing animal use (e.g., the carriage horse ban), i'm totally all for it.
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby debiguity » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:09 am

[quote="Miso Vegan";p=743]Ohhhh, GF and GLF are the same!

I've gotten together with like-minded vegan activists in the area to come up with a basic response to welfare-leaning vegans, a website and/or flyer to say "this is why I'm not supporting it." We decided we will not actively campaign against the initiative, though.

If I don't know how to build a website, how can I put up a website easily, with a specific name int he URL (as opposed to, say, creating a blog that has http://www.blogname.com/myclevergroupname)? I've been tasked with finding this out, which should indicate how tech-unsavvy this new group is!

Have you checked out http://humanemyth.org/? It's a great resource, and that's where I tend to send people (since I'm far too lazy to create my own website).

This article does a pretty good job of listing the basic steps to building a website: http://www.thesitewizard.com/gettingstarted/startwebsite.shtml - the answer to the url question falls under "getting a domain name".

It can be even easier, especially if you have pretty basic website needs, by using something like http://wordpress.org/ - you get the benefit of the free wordpress software, and it's (I've heard) pretty much plug and play if you use their recommended hosting, and in general registering a domain will be included in the cost of the hosting. Cuts down on some of the steps, and makes your life easier if you weren't interested in coding/designing the site, and are happy using the existing templates.
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby Shiva » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:11 am

[quote="Miso Vegan";p=743]Ohhhh, GF and GLF are the same!

I've gotten together with like-minded vegan activists in the area to come up with a basic response to welfare-leaning vegans, a website and/or flyer to say "this is why I'm not supporting it." We decided we will not actively campaign against the initiative, though.

If I don't know how to build a website, how can I put up a website easily, with a specific name int he URL (as opposed to, say, creating a blog that has http://www.blogname.com/myclevergroupname)? I've been tasked with finding this out, which should indicate how tech-unsavvy this new group is!

Is this going to about a specific piece of legislation, or will it be general enough to apply to any welfare campaign or initiative? If it's the latter, I think that we could make it a part of Vegan Ethos. What do you think?
~Shiva , Chief Troublemaker
If this post was edited, it was probably for spelling.
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby Miso Vegan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:39 am

[quote="debiguity";p=768]
Have you checked out http://humanemyth.org/? It's a great resource, and that's where I tend to send people (since I'm far too lazy to create my own website).

Yes! And actually, one of the members of our group works for Tribe of Heart (ToH) and ToH runs humanemyth.org. 8-)

[quote="debiguity";p=768]It can be even easier, especially if you have pretty basic website needs, by using something like http://wordpress.org/ - you get the benefit of the free wordpress software, and it's (I've heard) pretty much plug and play if you use their recommended hosting, and in general registering a domain will be included in the cost of the hosting. Cuts down on some of the steps, and makes your life easier if you weren't interested in coding/designing the site, and are happy using the existing templates.

Ah, this what I'd heard and was looking for. Thanks!
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby Miso Vegan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:42 am

[quote="Shiva";p=769]
Is this going to about a specific piece of legislation, or will it be general enough to apply to any welfare campaign or initiative? If it's the latter, I think that we could make it a part of Vegan Ethos. What do you think?


The former. We just want somewhere to point people for more reading, without getting into the heated arguments that were so divisive in California on Prop 2.
Thanks, though!
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby Miso Vegan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:13 am

[quote="vegankitty";p=747]Panthera, what is prop 2?


I'm not Panthera, but I can answer! Prop 2 was the California ballot initiative ... "to prohibit the confinement of certain farm animals in a manner that does not allow them to turn around freely, lie down, stand up, and fully extend their limbs. The measure deals with three types of confinement: veal crates, battery cages, and sow gestation crates."

Same backers, same basic approach, same name even as to what's coming up here in WA State, but CA's encompassed more animals. I don't know why HSUS went for the pared-down version here, other than perhaps market research (i.e., thinking it has a better chance of passing here if it's less far-reaching). Well, I suppose it could have something to do with laws already in existence. There are none in WA State that protect chickens, but other animals are already protected (so said one supporter).

Another difference (I'm outlining these for my own benefit, mostly, but also for anyone who cares or comes across this wesbite!):
In CA, Prop 2 did not ban the sale of battery-cage eggs, only the production. Under recognition that egg producers would leave the state, or out-of-state producers would dominate sales, Schwarzenegger signed a law that imposed the rule on the sale of all shell eggs.
In WA, the initiative includes all shell eggs for sale. So, HSUS learned something there.
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby vegankitty » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:19 am

Thanks! Now you explain it I remember - it was in 2008?
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Re: Abolition or Welfare? Do I have to choose?

Postby Miso Vegan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:45 am

Sounds about right. Recent, any way, and hasn't gone into effect.
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